Anon,
I think your premise comes from a common point amongst many Christians that if the Bible is not innerrant, then it is not true. It is this kind of overstatement that tends to a theology of hyperbole that leads to a community that "judges themselves by themselves and compares themselves with themselves."

I have rather shifted my thinking to something Walter Brueggemann teaches. Rather than having certainty with the Bible, I now have fidelity to it.

Many formalized theological doctrines exist to attempt to prevent heresy. In 1978 in Chicago, and official statement on Biblical Inerrancy was formed in the midst of spreading liberal criticism. Many misunderstand inerrancy on these points:

1. It only applies to the original manuscripts (which no longer exist), and not the copied/translated versions.

2. It does not mean "blind literalism" while reading Scripture, but allows for accurate reading in the proper context.

As always, people tend to go from one extreme to the other "over-applying" the statement (i.e. becoming strict fundamental literalists) or totally flushing any sense of Biblical authority: heretics.

Despite the many twists and turns in history and the misuse of Scripture (to both extremes), God has preserved the authority of His Word. It's just a shame many misinterpret, misapply, abuse, or neglect it.

Jeremy,

I feel this doctrine is a much deeper problem than the surface level differences which you articulated very well. It not only addresses the accuracy of the original text but it implies that God is the source of the texts. Implied in this doctrine is the idea that God wrote this text or dictated it or at a minimum somehow divinely influenced the text. This bizarre concept is found in most religions and tends to make a mockery of those religions by ignoring their crative poetic human value and making God the source rather than the object of the texts. Christianity, Islam, and even Mormons try to apply some type of divine authority to a thier own human products while denying the same of other religious texts. Once you have decided that your sacred text is "God's only sacred text" then you are going to fall into a host of false conclusions as you place human words, values, ideals, and priorities into the mouth of God.

Did God literally destroy the world with a flood or command Israel to kill women and children? Of course not! These are not God's words or his inspiration. Instead they are the words of an ancient people doing their best to explain their experiences and using creativity to pass down traditions and stories.

This doctrine of biblical inerrancy, authority, and inspiration is the source of most of the mistakes in the history of Christian theology. This doctrine is the result is the competitive nature of religions as they all compete for the "one true word of God" when in reality, the word of God trancends any human text and is a set of ideals that are not revealed by God but are observerved through human experience and presented in a variety of creative narratives.

At the heart of this doctrine is the idea that God has literally spoken to us through people and implies that our goal in theology is to locate the correct human spokesperson that have the proper authority to speak for God and reject those that don't have that authority. This one concept is reponsible for millions of lost lives and ongoing divisions around the world.

From where do you find the authority for you to make the claims and judgments you are making? Humans can do some really neat stuff, but they can also do some crazy and evil things as well. I find it ironic that you seek to "fight the empire," yet deny the possibility that the text you use to draw those conclusions has much more power than you realize.

Again, I think there is a big misunderstanding on the nature of the Bible. The Koran was supposedly dictated by an angel with one human author. The Bible, on the other hand, consists of over 40 human authors from various cultures and times. Amazingly, some of the passages are indeed actual quotes from God Himself. Others are human accounts of events that took place. The book of Esther, for instance, doesn't even mention God! However, it's fascinating to see His hand in human events.

A huge error occurs when people misinterpret the text. This leads to heresy and evil (i.e. cults, genocide, you name it). The passages in Scripture that do recount historical violence are not prescriptive writings (i.e. "go do the same"). However, many other religions DO have texts prescribing violence toward infidels, etc.

Scripture affirms itself as being the Word of God (whether a direct quote of God's words, the teachings of Jesus, or an account of His working through "natural" and "supernatural" events). Because of this, it has timeless authority in any culture or time.

So on the contrary, the Bible was written as a "collaboration" between God and man- God revealing Himself through the hands of human authors at times; other times He revealed Himself through an event or nature... it's quite remarkable, indeed a mystery. Are other religious writings helpful? Perhaps. But only the Bible has true timeless authority.

I agree with you that our goal should not be to "locate the correct human spokesperson that have the proper authority to speak for God and reject those that don't have that authority." There are several instances in Scripture that God used "non-spokesmen" for His purposes (unbelieving Pharoah, the traitor Judas, Balaam's donkey).

The main purpose of Scripture is to reveal the Christ that does have all authority in heaven and earth.

Jeremy,

Why do you have such a facination with "authority"? Why do I need something or someone to give my reasoning some authority? Giving texts and leaders authority over reason is what has caused heresy. It has caused cults, crusades, holocaust, and many wars. Jesus made it clear that the validity of a tree's nature is in it's fruit. If a book tells you that nationalism, prejudice, or religious bigotry is good then is it really good? Or will you trust the proven results over history?

The demand for Orthodoxy has caused more death than heresy against orthodoxy. Also I argue that the bible's texts are just as horrible as the Koran IF and ONLY IF you try to read it as written or dictated by God. In the Bible, Israel is instructed to kill infedels also (non-jews, pagans, non-believers, even women and children) just because they are not God's chosen people. God kills millions in a flood... right? How is that any different from the koran? And that is just history, how about eternal damnation for non-Christians?

Before you assume I'm somehow anti-Bible, please know that this non-literal veiw of scripture has allowed me to fall in love with the Bible all over again. Now that I know it is NOT Gods "words" I am finally free to love every word in it as beatiful man-made poetry. It is wonderful and the object of my interest more that any other book.

Many people have fallen into the trap of the false dichotomy that either the Bible is God's words or it is useless. That has been the single greatest attraction of atheism in the modern world. Luckily for us there is more than 2 choices. If Christians publicized this 3rd view then the floodgates would open and Christianity would experience a massive growth. We have at least one more choice and that is to acknowledge that these texts do NOT represent God but represent their author's imagination about what God means to them.

We need to learn to take the Bible seriously without taking it literaly.

I was just curious of what standards you use to judge the usefulness of any given text. Without someone of higher authority writing the text, religious writings would be on the same level as the Yellow Pages, Betty Crocker cookbooks, and a police officer's book of traffic citations! Yes, I love to read- I enjoy poetry, history, and certainly music. But if I take the latest Bjork CD as having some sort of Divine authority, things will get a little awkward. I'm a musician...I love good art...can God "inspire" creativity? Absolutely. But does it carry the "authority" of instructing our lives? Not so sure.

You asked "If a book tells you that nationalism, prejudice, or religious bigotry is good then is it really good? Or will you trust the proven results over history?" Are you referring to a certain text? What I've read of the Koran mentions some of that! The Bible, however, does not. I'm afraid that the Biblical passages you may be referring to are the same ones that many have misinterpreted to justify their horrible actions (using a descriptive text as prescriptive).

Jesus makes His Kingdom agenda clear- that His covenant love is available to all people, cultures, and nations (see John 3, for example).

My fear is that while you "wage war against the empire," you'll miss the chance to see that God is redeeming people WITHIN the empire- as wrong, sick, evil, and twisted as it might be. That's the business of God- redeeming the seemingly unredeemable. It sounds to me like many of your "blanket statements" against Christian doctrines and culture is the same thing you despise when others have done likewise.

It seems to me that you assume YOU are the final authority on things. What some may call confidence I call pride. What some may call knowledge I would call foolishness.

You ask why I have such a fascination with authority- it's throughout the Gospels (and Bible in general). I thought that's what many of your previous posts were about- Jesus' revolutionary agenda against the authority of the empire!??! How could He have such authority to do such things? Not because He was ANTI-authority, but He Himself was the HIGHER-authority. Basically, Jesus teaches that He acts not on His own authority, but that of God the Father (John 8:28). He teaches that to have authority, you must be under authority (Matthew 8, Luke 7) It sounds contrary to our American culture (which is why I attribute most of your philosophy in this area to being a "victim" of this culture).

Once you have as many texts written about you, have as many churches dedicated to you, and have one of the world's largest spiritual followings...then maybe I'll listen. Until then, I'm leery of taking to heart the spiritual advice of anyone you speaks solely on their own authority.

Jeremy,

I think you have the wrong impression of my statements. Let me clarify a couple of points so we can agree on what I'm saying (we don't have to agree on its validity but we should at least agree on the content).

You said: "It seems to me that you assume YOU are the final authority on things."

I don't want to do that at all. If I do then please correct me. Where do I claim to speak for God or claim that my words carry some weight simple because I said them?

Also you seem to think I view Jesus as a rebel against authority. I definatley do not. Jesus opposed the Empire because of its oppression not simply because it was a higher aurthority. I am confident that Jesus would have been very comfortable supporting the authority of the temple if it had not been working in concert with the Empire to oppress his friends and family. I am confident he would have approved of an Empire controlling his people IF they had been just. Remember that Jesus could not have known about modern democracy. His understanding of the world was based on a system of kings and kingdoms which is why he used that language to describe the ideal future establishment as a kingdom. His protest was NOT against authority but it was against oppression. But don't take my word for it. Read the texts and read all the information at our disposal and then use your own ability to reason. I think you will see the point is valid. No point should be accepted based on authority without reason and experience.

I like your point about the Bjork CD. That is exactly what I mean! I'll have to borrow that for future discussions. Why take any poetry or art as revelation from God. Instead it is an observation ABOUT our experience of God. NOBODY should claim some authority as the messenger of God. Not Bjork, not me, not Paul, not the Pope, and not the poets of ancient Israel. If we let men become the spokespeople for God then you end up with a group of people committing mass suicide or suicide bombers trying to become martyrs? Poetry can contian wonderfuth truths about God but it should never be claimed as divine authority. On this we completely agree!

If we take the Bible as "God's Words" and assume that anytime a poet or storyteller in the bible claims to be speaking for God then they actually ARE speaking for God then here is a sample of the death and destruction that God would get credit for:

Lot's wife for looking back - Gen.19:26,

Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" - Gen.38:7,

Onan for spilling his seed - Gen.38:10,

For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf - Ex.32:27-28, 35,

Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord - Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61,

A blasphemer - Lev.24:10-23,

A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath - Num.15:32-36,

Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) - Num.16:27,

Burned to death for offering incense - Num.16:35, 26:10,

For complaining - Num.16:49,

For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" - Num.25:9,

Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) - Num.31:1-35,

God tells Joshua to stone to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. - Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26,

God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). - Joshua 8:1-25,

Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees - Joshua 10:24-26,

God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites - Judges 1:4,

Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly - Jg.3:15-22,

God delivered Moabites - Jg.3:28-29,

God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. - Jg.7:2-22, 8:10,

The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson - Jg.14:19,

The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson - Jg.15:14-15,

Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism - Jg.16:27-30,

"The Lord smote Benjamin" - Jg.20:35-37,

More Benjamites - Jg.20:44-46

For looking into the ark of the Lord - 1 Sam.6:19

God delivered Philistines - 1 Sam.14:12

Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death - 1 Sam.15:32-33

"The Lord smote Nabal." - 1 Sam.25:38

Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling - 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10

David and Bathsheba's baby boy - 2 Sam.12:14-18

Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord - 2 Sam.21:6-9

From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) - 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7

A prophet for believing another prophet's lie - 1 Kg.13:1-24

God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands - 1 Kg.20:28-29

God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers - 1 Kg.20:30

God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet - 1 Kg.20:35-36

Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. - 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9

Burned to death by God - 2 Kg.1:9-12

God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head - 2 Kg.2:23-24

Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah - 2 Kg.7:17-20

Jezebel - 2 Kg.9:33-37

God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners - 2 Kg.17:25-26

Sleeping Assyrian soldiers - 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36

Saul - 1 Chr.10:14

God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah - 2 Chr.13:15-17

Jeroboam - 2 Chr.13:20

"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." - 2 Chr.14:9-14

God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out - 2 Chr.21:14-19

Ezekiel's wife - Ezek.24:15-18

Ananias and Sapphira - Acts 5:1-10

Herod - Acts 12:23

Throw in the great flood for good measure.

It is hard to keep an accurate body count, but the number would be in the millions. What if we add the millions that used the "authority of the Bible" in the middle ages or in the modern era?

The problem of evil is a big one. The consequences for sin and disobedience are really nasty. There's no way we can figure it all out on this blog, but I'm happy to see you digging in Scripture!

While you look at these "negative" stories, take some time to look at the instances where God extends amazing amounts of grace to people. I would quote specifics, but hey...it's the message of the entire Bible.

Jeremy,

Thanks as always for the spirited dialogue and your valuable insights and illustrations. I agree the problem of evil is bad, but I hope we can learn to stop giving God the blame. If these ancient poets were correct to blame God for these deaths then that paints a horrible picture of God. It also accounts for why so many people are turning toward atheism. I talk to more and more atheists that feel they have only 2 choices: A) God really did this violence OR B) the Bible is a lie and/or fabrication.

We created a false dichotomy. I feel that Christianity has a great opportunity to reverse that trend by offering another option based on sound reason not blind faith in authority. Let's value scripture for what it tells us about humanity and about their experiences of religion but let's NOT try to read these texts as historically accurate accounts of God's intervention, judgement, punishment, and favoritism. The result could be powerful if we can get the message out, but I think it needs to be accepted by the Church so that it can be a conduit for the message. I hope you will consider the possibilies of that message and vision becoming a reality. Imagine the joy of presenting that wonderful message.

May I humbly suggest that if the Bible is not the Word of God I could not care less about you or anybody else? Yet because of His word I have been transformed. I used to be consistently evil, I am still not perfect, but I am far better than I was, and now I do care about you and everybody else. This is where the rubber hits the pavement; we should not always live in the theoretical world, where ideas often do not live up to reality.

If the Bible is just some peoples mere opinion that is not any more important or authoritive than my own thoughts then I could not care less. It is back to battle of the fittest, let the weak die.

Yet if God has intervened...I am extremely interested. Everything is different! Truth does matter, that is why every one of you is attempting to appeal to it with your arguments. If there is not a Person that is truth, the very standard then who cares about anything? A few old guys write some poetry, if it is not backed up by authority I do not care.

My vote for worst theological invention is: I make up my own man made rules and follow them doing my own thing without a living relationship with the Creator Who has reached out to us in a very real and tangible way and still expect to live with Him in the future. Oh and by the way Creator of absolutely everything Who sacrificed Himself for me (a self-centered prideful biped) I believe that Your whole crucifixion thing is just a poetic construct… everything is cool with that right God? How would that kind of thinking work in any genuine relationship?

Please take my comments as they meant to be taken, they are not attacks; there is no anger or maliciousness. I just don’t get the point of any of it if it is not really from God.

Livingsword,

Thanks for your comments here. I recognize your concern. It is one that I also had before I found other options and the scripture became alive to me. I once also had this false dichotomy of A or B (facts or useless). Now I see more options and I love the Bible more than ever.

I am NOT willing to throw the Bible away just because it is not divinely inspired. In fact, this realization that it is not divinely inspired allows me to embrace it more than ever. I no longer have to blame God for the problems in it.

You made a good sarcastic comment that characterized a bad theological view when you said: "I make up my own man made rules and follow them doing my own thing without a living relationship with the Creator...

I agree with you. That would be horrible. Point well taken! But I argue that what you presented is actually the view of Orthodox Chrstianity which ignored the message of Jesus and came up with man-made rules (orthodoxy) using man-made texts without developing a living relationship with the message of Jesus.

Danutz;
Thanks for your kind words of greeting, please take my words as coming from a caring heart as often a quick text on a comment board can be easily misunderstood.

I didn’t grow up in a “Christian home”; I did not have any Christian friends or family. No immediate Christian influence. I read thru the Bible on my own with no study notes and when I was done I became a follower of Jesus, my beliefs came from Scripture alone (By the way I also studied all of the worlds major religions, I read the Quran 7 times before 9-11). Then I went about learning “theology” and about Church. I found that I could fit into many kinds of what you would call “orthodox” Churches (when I say this I mean Protestant). I found His Word to be living and active. God thru His Scripture had led me in the exact same direction as orthodox churches without me knowing it. Now that is different from churchianity which I am not a big fan of because it does at times push man made “stuff” on the Scriptures, and it is very visible to me since I did not grow up as part of the Church.

When I read your list of accusations against God I wonder if you would prefer the situation to not be that we are made in His image but would rather make God in our image…

This seems to be a very North American centric thing to do these days (I better say it that way since I am Canadian). In the parts of the world where things are tough Christians have no problem with these portions of Scripture. At times I believe you are mixing apples and oranges, if you would like to give me your one “star” accusation I would be happy to address it.

Perhaps you have led a rather “good” life (or perhaps not), I have not, I deserve God’s wrath, I deserve the Lake of Fire, I deserve to be vaporized from this planet and incarcerated in Hell. Yet thru faith, grace, repentance, and the work of Jesus I am rescued from that. Yet I do not deserve that forgiveness. I understand that God is a God of Holiness, it is very pronounced to me because I am so clearly not. (All this being said I am becoming more Christlike almost everyday).

Respectfully when I look at your plan C or third way it just comes up hollow. It seems to be a shell game to escape things that may appear or feel too tough, not soft enough. It seems to me (I do not know) that you only want part of Gods nature so you have looked for a way to eliminate the “distasteful parts”. You use logic and reason to defend it but do not want to be captivated by logic or reason (please do not take these as insults; this is just how things seem to me from afar, and I am attempting to understand you).

Perhaps I am too shallow to follow your argument but I still do not get why I should care about the Bible if it is not from God. Possibly there is too much of a hang up on authority so let me say power (to facilitate communication, I do believe in authority), when I study the Word of God it has power because it is the Word of God, it has power. If it does not have that power I do not care about it. I will try not to prolong the agony of Bjork… perhaps a better example would be why should I follow the Bible and not Hitlers Mein Kampf if the Bible is not from God then they are both on the same foundation, the mere thoughts of men?

Livingsword,

You said: When I read your list of accusations against God...

Please reread my post. I'm not accusing God of anything. I'm stating my opposition of the idea that God is responsible for those things. Instead, PEOPLE did those things then blamed God or used God as an excuse for advancing their cause.

You completely flipped my post upside down.

Also, I'm not suggesting that you follow some other document's instructions in place of the Bible. I also have chosen to make the Bible my source of direction. I just don't try to interpret it literally and I don't mistake it for divine authority.

As for your suggestion that I might be trying to "create God in man's image"; I agree that would be a bad thing to do, but I suggest that is exactly what the Bible has done. It paints a picture of what people imagine God would be like IF he were like us. If God was like an earthly king he would demand worship, he would punish those that get it wrong, and he would expand his wealth by expanding his control with violence.

I join with you in rejecting the idea of building God in man's image.

Danutz;

Thanks for your response. I am saying that I have no problem with God taking the actions He has taken that are written about in Scripture. I see nothing but perfection in Him. Yes even regarding a literal flood of some kind or the Lake of Fire in a very literal sense, after all I admit I deserve it, will you admit the same thing? Although I do take the Bible literally there are of course poetic sections such as Song of Songs, parables, hyperbole, And times where the human agents come up wanting for limits on language, etc.

I think that the concept that the Bible builds a very human looking God is interesting. We are created in His image, but in fact I beg to differ with you in this matter. I will give one piece of evidence for my position (although there are others), it is something that I have not seen in its purist form in any other belief system, (I have studied all the major ones for many years even before becoming a follower of Jesus) and it strongly militates against human nature, grace. It is so absolutely audacious in Scripture in that it defies human endeavor, so much so that people will often not believe it. Our natural impulse is to earn our way, because we are so proud, but grace destroys that. Also people are inclined towards karma but the Bible gives us grace, it is antithetical to our nature. When you grasp this concept in the manner that you “own it” you are transformed. This is not from man. If the Bible is not from God then I am back to my hedonistic lifestyle, because if it not from God then the writers are amongst the most evil people to have walked the planet, and it is not worth the paper it is written on. Plus the Bible would just be a waste of time just like baseball.

Your turn…

I am a big fan of grace, baseball and the Bible!

Thanks for your well constructed arguments. It has helped clarify the issue at hand. So many people have followed the logic of either fundamentalism or atheism as if those two extremes are the only choices.

Grace and the Bible yes but baseball? That explains soooo much :]